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Article MASONIC NOTES AND QUERIES. ← Page 2 of 4 →
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Masonic Notes And Queries.
BURGH RECORDS . " A Masonic Student" might get the book eithei through his bookseller or by writing James D . Marwick , Esq ., Edinburgh , Secretary of the Burgh Records Society . —W . P . E .
BRO . J . A . H . AND HIS " LOOSENESS AS TO DATES . Bro . J . A . H ., at p . 271 , says he is " not aware of his ' looseness as to dates . ' " I am sorry to hear that , for if he be no more correct with his other data than with his statements in first paragraph of page 203 , he is not a very reliable historian . Why said paragraph
is almost all a mistake , viz ., — he saw the hall of the St . Mark ' s Lodge , whose colour is red , while St . John ' s is blue ; then the date on the old chest is 1684 , not " 1600 . " Had Bro . J . A . H . sent the beautiful photo of it ( which I gave him ) , as he promised , to the Magazine to be engravedit would have kept
, things right then , the old sash is dated 1600 , not "last century . " The St . John's Lodge is only tenant , along with other lodges , of St . Mark's hall . — ~ W . P . BUCHAN .
GRAND ORIENT 05 SPAIN . A paragraph in the last number of the Freemasons Magazine requires a separate notice and chronicle in Notes and Queries , as it registers the existence of a Grand Orient in Spain . It is well know that for a long time many attempts were secretly made amongst the members of the Fraternity to form a Grand Orient .
It appears that No . 1 is the Mantuana Lodge . — NOTA . BEOS . HUGHAN , BUCHAN , AND J . A . H . I have no objection to 1717 being called the " pet date " of Bro . Hughan and I , because it is a substantial date ; we can anchor safely by itwhile others are
, wildly tossing about in the abyss of uncertainty and absurdity . Bro . J . A . H . ' s " Prince-Bishop " joining the Masons' Society before last century was as much a speculative Mason thereby as his joining the weavers' society would have made him a speculative weaver—perhaps less .
Since Bro . J . A . H . asserts that speculative Masonry was in existence before 1717 , it is his place to prove the affirmative , not mine to prove the negative , more especially as it has been always given out that there was plenty of evidence to prove the former ; but how curious it is that whenever said evidence is looked for
it cannot be got ! There are many lodge minutes and other Masonic documents older than 1717 ; yet , withal , ask for proof of speculative Masonry being practised before 1717 and it cannot be got ! Ask for it after 1717 and you get plenty . I leave the inference to your readers . — "W . P . B .
TRADESMEN IN LODGES . We are indebted to your indefatigable correspondent , J . A . H ., for a notable discovery , or suggestion , that , in the beginning of the last century , tradesmen were practically excluded from lodges , for that is what this allusion comes toif it means anything .
, The division between Hanoverian and Jacobite had nothing to do with division of gentlemen and tradesmen . The majority of the population of England was Hanoverian , and embraced the greater part of the gentry , while the Jacobite ranks enrolled many
tradesmen among their partizans . Most of the old London lodges of both jurisdictions were evidently public-house lodges , not held in the best or more aristocratic taverns , but in ordinary public-houses . —T . E » THE ANTIQUITY OE FREEMASONRY ( p . 272 ) . I am glad to see "A Masonic Student" again
appearing on the scene , and trust that he is now in good health . Our Masonic believers will be glad to hear about the " mass of evidence , direct and indirect , which we are gradually accumulating on the subject . '' Suppose "A Masonic Student" favours us with a portion of this " mass of evidence " as to
the pretended antiquity of speculative . Freemasonry I I challenge him to do so—if he can—but I am afraid be cannot . Halliwell ' s poem was not written in " the 14 th century , " but as I showed at page 29 , in the " middle of the 15 th century ; " its internal evidence shows it was not of the 14 th ; however , neither it nor Cooke's shows any evidence of the eodstence of Speculative Masonry among their writers . —W . P . BUCHAN .
EBEEBOBN ( p . 270 ) . As this time of Masonic archaeological discussion it is desirable to point out particularly Act xv . in Bro . Buchan ' s valuable publication of the Leges-Burgorum . It says distinctly that a " servus , " or " thrall , " if he abide for a twelvemonth shall become free of the burgh . —NOTE .
THE MASONS OE A . D . 1729 . Many of the Masons of 1729 knew well enough- — although they choose to conceal it—that speculative Masonry was then only about 12 years old ; but with them , as with the upholders of Malcolm Canmore ' s forged charter in A . D . 1869 although they may admit
, in private that they know or consider it to be a forgery , yet still upon all their public documents the statement is still issued as a fact ! as to proof of which I enclose the last issued . * More , a perusal of last century productions convinces me that there was then a regular system gradually established in order
to uphold the pretended antiquity of Freemasonry , In fact , a great part of our Masonic fabric—hi gher degrees included—has been an imposition , not only by Masons upon the public , but by Masons upon their brethren . For our own honour , then , I trust that all honest Freemasons will assist at elucidating the truth . —W . P . B .
REVELATIONS . If "A Foreigner" will be kind enough to point out any mischief likely to arise from the information I published , his remarks may then be comprehensible . But surely , after recent correspondence , there was no harm in showing the classes of persons expressly shut out from Scottish Masonry . "A Foreigner' ' will do well to turn his attention to his own lodge , and see that the 6 th class are there excluded . —J . A . H .
KISSING ( p . 273 ) . I am aware that Frenchmen have a partiality to kissing ; but I prefer to kiss ladies , not men . —W . P-B '
Note: This text has been automatically extracted via Optical Character Recognition (OCR) software.
Masonic Notes And Queries.
BURGH RECORDS . " A Masonic Student" might get the book eithei through his bookseller or by writing James D . Marwick , Esq ., Edinburgh , Secretary of the Burgh Records Society . —W . P . E .
BRO . J . A . H . AND HIS " LOOSENESS AS TO DATES . Bro . J . A . H ., at p . 271 , says he is " not aware of his ' looseness as to dates . ' " I am sorry to hear that , for if he be no more correct with his other data than with his statements in first paragraph of page 203 , he is not a very reliable historian . Why said paragraph
is almost all a mistake , viz ., — he saw the hall of the St . Mark ' s Lodge , whose colour is red , while St . John ' s is blue ; then the date on the old chest is 1684 , not " 1600 . " Had Bro . J . A . H . sent the beautiful photo of it ( which I gave him ) , as he promised , to the Magazine to be engravedit would have kept
, things right then , the old sash is dated 1600 , not "last century . " The St . John's Lodge is only tenant , along with other lodges , of St . Mark's hall . — ~ W . P . BUCHAN .
GRAND ORIENT 05 SPAIN . A paragraph in the last number of the Freemasons Magazine requires a separate notice and chronicle in Notes and Queries , as it registers the existence of a Grand Orient in Spain . It is well know that for a long time many attempts were secretly made amongst the members of the Fraternity to form a Grand Orient .
It appears that No . 1 is the Mantuana Lodge . — NOTA . BEOS . HUGHAN , BUCHAN , AND J . A . H . I have no objection to 1717 being called the " pet date " of Bro . Hughan and I , because it is a substantial date ; we can anchor safely by itwhile others are
, wildly tossing about in the abyss of uncertainty and absurdity . Bro . J . A . H . ' s " Prince-Bishop " joining the Masons' Society before last century was as much a speculative Mason thereby as his joining the weavers' society would have made him a speculative weaver—perhaps less .
Since Bro . J . A . H . asserts that speculative Masonry was in existence before 1717 , it is his place to prove the affirmative , not mine to prove the negative , more especially as it has been always given out that there was plenty of evidence to prove the former ; but how curious it is that whenever said evidence is looked for
it cannot be got ! There are many lodge minutes and other Masonic documents older than 1717 ; yet , withal , ask for proof of speculative Masonry being practised before 1717 and it cannot be got ! Ask for it after 1717 and you get plenty . I leave the inference to your readers . — "W . P . B .
TRADESMEN IN LODGES . We are indebted to your indefatigable correspondent , J . A . H ., for a notable discovery , or suggestion , that , in the beginning of the last century , tradesmen were practically excluded from lodges , for that is what this allusion comes toif it means anything .
, The division between Hanoverian and Jacobite had nothing to do with division of gentlemen and tradesmen . The majority of the population of England was Hanoverian , and embraced the greater part of the gentry , while the Jacobite ranks enrolled many
tradesmen among their partizans . Most of the old London lodges of both jurisdictions were evidently public-house lodges , not held in the best or more aristocratic taverns , but in ordinary public-houses . —T . E » THE ANTIQUITY OE FREEMASONRY ( p . 272 ) . I am glad to see "A Masonic Student" again
appearing on the scene , and trust that he is now in good health . Our Masonic believers will be glad to hear about the " mass of evidence , direct and indirect , which we are gradually accumulating on the subject . '' Suppose "A Masonic Student" favours us with a portion of this " mass of evidence " as to
the pretended antiquity of speculative . Freemasonry I I challenge him to do so—if he can—but I am afraid be cannot . Halliwell ' s poem was not written in " the 14 th century , " but as I showed at page 29 , in the " middle of the 15 th century ; " its internal evidence shows it was not of the 14 th ; however , neither it nor Cooke's shows any evidence of the eodstence of Speculative Masonry among their writers . —W . P . BUCHAN .
EBEEBOBN ( p . 270 ) . As this time of Masonic archaeological discussion it is desirable to point out particularly Act xv . in Bro . Buchan ' s valuable publication of the Leges-Burgorum . It says distinctly that a " servus , " or " thrall , " if he abide for a twelvemonth shall become free of the burgh . —NOTE .
THE MASONS OE A . D . 1729 . Many of the Masons of 1729 knew well enough- — although they choose to conceal it—that speculative Masonry was then only about 12 years old ; but with them , as with the upholders of Malcolm Canmore ' s forged charter in A . D . 1869 although they may admit
, in private that they know or consider it to be a forgery , yet still upon all their public documents the statement is still issued as a fact ! as to proof of which I enclose the last issued . * More , a perusal of last century productions convinces me that there was then a regular system gradually established in order
to uphold the pretended antiquity of Freemasonry , In fact , a great part of our Masonic fabric—hi gher degrees included—has been an imposition , not only by Masons upon the public , but by Masons upon their brethren . For our own honour , then , I trust that all honest Freemasons will assist at elucidating the truth . —W . P . B .
REVELATIONS . If "A Foreigner" will be kind enough to point out any mischief likely to arise from the information I published , his remarks may then be comprehensible . But surely , after recent correspondence , there was no harm in showing the classes of persons expressly shut out from Scottish Masonry . "A Foreigner' ' will do well to turn his attention to his own lodge , and see that the 6 th class are there excluded . —J . A . H .
KISSING ( p . 273 ) . I am aware that Frenchmen have a partiality to kissing ; but I prefer to kiss ladies , not men . —W . P-B '