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  • June 6, 1863
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The Freemasons' Monthly Magazine, June 6, 1863: Page 6

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    Article THE MASONIC MIRROR. ← Page 2 of 4 →
Page 6

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The Masonic Mirror.

absent , who had shown a determination to prevent them from considering this report . As they had appointed him on the committee , he had worked laboriously early and late for them , and he now wished to state what tbey had done , but not then to enter into a discussion of the merits of the plans . He moved that the report be received and entered on the minutes . Bro . MASON seconded the motion . Bro . PARGOOD said he rose to oppose the motionand was

, sure he would have from his lordship every indulgence in stating his views upon it . ( Question . ) He had expressed no opinion , ancl he asked for the patience of those whom he addressed . ( Question , question . ) The GRAud Jl ASTER hoped that every good Mason who wished to address them would have fair play , and that Grand Lodge would act dispassionately and attentivelyso as to enable

, them to come to a proper ancl right conclusion on the suhject before them . Bro . SARGOOD then continued , and said , although he had the greatest respect for Bro . Havers , and no one entertained a higher sense of tbe labours he had performed , yet no opinion he had formed of him would prevent him from feeling and openly expressing in that august assembly what he believed

to be right . They were asked to enter on the minutes one of the most important reports ever submitted to Grand Lodge , and he desired to discuss it on broad principles without a bias in favour of one party or another . He regretted to hear from Bro . Havers that , in his opinion , there was a desire on the part of some brethren to prevent them coming to the business of the evening , but be would assert that the subject was open

to them for discussion the very moment after the report was read . As to entering the report on the minutes , that was , in his opinion , tantamount to the adoption of it , and he warned them as to that first step , and he would tell them why . He believed that the committee had not done themselves justice , or had the report donejastice to Grand Lodge . He would tell them what his objections were to the report being entered on the minutes , for as they were to be asked to agree to the resolutions which followed it , he had no desire to precipitate them from the first step to the second , by agreeing to tlie report , which he held to be utterly useless in enabling them to come

to a proper conclusion . Tbey were to be asked to agree to it , and take action that night on a matter which was to last for centuries ; and as the report was only seen by him last Thursday , he would ask how many within those walls as well as the thousands who were without them could be prepared in such information to agree at once to the recommendation of this report . They wero asked to agree to the report , but the committee said they were not to know tbe reasons

which bad led them to their conclusions . Tbe committee might tell them that they should go to St . Martin ' s Hall and see the plans for themselves , but in the course of the evening they would be called upon to agree to certain plans , and then , perhaps , they would know the views ofthe committee . He contended that tho committee had not acted fairly by them , for when he went inf o St . Martin ' s Hall , his mind was all

confusion amidst a mass of paper and drawings , and if they were on that evening called upon to express an opinion , he said that it would be a complete farce . If they were to bo called upon at that stage to agree to the plan , he must say the committee had acted most unfairly , as they called upon the brethren to agree to the plans , but refused to give them the means of testing their value .

Bro . STEBBING rose to order , and said the question before Grand Lodge was not that the report should be adopted but that it shoulcb . be received . It was according to etiquette and common practice to receive the report of every committee as a matter of courtesy , and right except under very peculiar circumstances . If they could show to Grand Lodge that there had been some fraud committed , some injustice done , or

some great error or imposition committed , then that would form a great cause why they should not receive the report , but as it was their learned brother was making great use of words with considerable occupation of their time , on a very sultry evening in discussing the merits of the report on a motion for its reception . Unless he could shew that in the report there was some incompetencysomething unjust or wrongthey were not

, , justified in departing from tbe ordinary courtesies in receiving it , and be hoped that Grand Lodge would not allow that battle of tactics to prevent them from coming to the discussion of a great question ivhich he hoped whoulcl be finally settled that evening .

Tne GRAND MASTER said he was unwilling to interfere , but he thought their learned brother was going beyond the fair limits of discussion . The question was that the report be received , but the learned brother was going into its merits . If they continued iu such a course he could see no end to it . Bro . SARGOOD said it was his intention to move avv amendment . He conld assure his lordship that he meant no discourtesy in giving bis reasons why the report should not be received

ancl entered on the minutes . He thought he was only pointing out , and he intended only to point out , the reasons why thej : should not receive the report . Bro . Sargood then read his amendment , which thanked the committee for their past exertions ; recommended that the report should be referred back to them , and that they should be requested further to report to Grand Lodge the reasons which induced them to select

the plan No . 1 , and that these reasons should be published and circulated for the information of tbe Craft at large . The GRAND MASTER said such an amendment could not be moved until the report had been received . Tbe DEPUTY GRAND MASTER said until a report was received it was not formally before Grand Lodge , and then it rested , with Grand Lodge as to what course it would take with it ,

but certainly it could not be referred back to the committee . It was not before Grand Lodge until it had been received . The GRAND MASTER then put the question that the report of the committee be received and entered on the minutes , which was agreed to . Bro . SARGOOD wished to ask when he would be at liberty to move his amendment .

The GRAND MASTER said he could only introduce his amendment when the first resolution was moved . Bro . SARGOOD said he was obliged to his lordship , and would take that course . Bro . HAVERS said he bad then to move the first resolution T " That this Grand Lodge do proceed to consider and decide upon tbe adoption , or otherwise , of a design distinguished by its

motto or symbol only , and before the name of its author is declared . " He said , unfortunately , the las resolution did not appear to be understood by tho Grand Lodge , as it bound them , to nothing , and be apprehended there would be no difficulty in

carrying the resolution which he had proposed . This resolution ,, like the last , bound them to nothing as they could adopt , reject , or modify any plan which was distinguished by a motto , and that was the object of the committee in proposing tbe resolution they had put before the Grand Lodge . They desired that the plans themselves should be considered on their merits and their merits alone . The committee felt that they had been charged with a most important duty which was to obtain for Masonry

the most-dignified home which could be provided . In the next placo they bad considered the best course by which that result was to be arrived at , and although they desired that they should be in ignorance of the names of the authors of the plans , unfortunately in that respect , and no one could regret it more than himself , their object had been frustrated . At the time they came to a decision on the plans , however , the committee

were in perfect ignorance of the names of the authors , and by the publication of names was so up to three days ago . Ho remained in perfect ignorance of them until , by mere accident , he was informed of the names of the authors of the three selected designs . Still , he felt in the interests of their society that they would decide on the merits of the plansand the merits alone . The committee decided on

, them , but he thought it right to tell the Grand Lodge that tbey were not unanimous in their selection . Deeming it right that the brethren should know every fact connected with the matter , of which he was prepared to give any explanation , and , if he failed to do so if questions were put to him to elucidate any point , he would answer them to tbe best of his ability . The committee agreed , by a majority of 5 to 2 , on the

first ancl second selected plans , but on the third thoy were unanimous . Still , they felt that they ought to have the opinion of some competent professional persons with a view of strengthening them in their choice ; and he believed that ivas a course that the majority of the brethren would have adopted under similar circumstances . It was considered right that they should obtain the opinions of gentlemen of professional celebrityand

, of three gentlemen proposed two were agreed to unanimously . They accordingly placed the selected plans before them , and asked them to state their opinions upon them , and the result was , as regarded two of the plans , —the first and second , —they confirmed the opinion of the committee , but did not agree

“The Freemasons' Monthly Magazine: 1863-06-06, Page 6” Masonic Periodicals Online, Library and Museum of Freemasonry, 27 March 2023, www.masonicperiodicals.org/periodicals/mmr/issues/mmr_06061863/page/6/.
  • List
  • Grid
Title Category Page
GRAND LODGE PROPERTY. Article 1
FREEMASONRY IN CHINA. Article 1
CLASSICAL THEOLOGY, LXVII. Article 1
HOW BOMBAY BECAME A SCOTCH PROVINCE. Article 2
FREEMASONS' HALL. Article 3
MASONIC NOTES AND QUERIES. Article 4
THE MASONIC MIRROR. Article 5
METROPOLITAN. Article 8
PROVINCIAL. Article 9
CHINA. Article 13
INDIA. Article 15
ROYAL ARCH. Article 18
KNIGHTS TEMPLAR. Article 18
THE WEEK. Article 19
TO CORRESPONDENTS. Article 20
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Note: This text has been automatically extracted via Optical Character Recognition (OCR) software.

The Masonic Mirror.

absent , who had shown a determination to prevent them from considering this report . As they had appointed him on the committee , he had worked laboriously early and late for them , and he now wished to state what tbey had done , but not then to enter into a discussion of the merits of the plans . He moved that the report be received and entered on the minutes . Bro . MASON seconded the motion . Bro . PARGOOD said he rose to oppose the motionand was

, sure he would have from his lordship every indulgence in stating his views upon it . ( Question . ) He had expressed no opinion , ancl he asked for the patience of those whom he addressed . ( Question , question . ) The GRAud Jl ASTER hoped that every good Mason who wished to address them would have fair play , and that Grand Lodge would act dispassionately and attentivelyso as to enable

, them to come to a proper ancl right conclusion on the suhject before them . Bro . SARGOOD then continued , and said , although he had the greatest respect for Bro . Havers , and no one entertained a higher sense of tbe labours he had performed , yet no opinion he had formed of him would prevent him from feeling and openly expressing in that august assembly what he believed

to be right . They were asked to enter on the minutes one of the most important reports ever submitted to Grand Lodge , and he desired to discuss it on broad principles without a bias in favour of one party or another . He regretted to hear from Bro . Havers that , in his opinion , there was a desire on the part of some brethren to prevent them coming to the business of the evening , but be would assert that the subject was open

to them for discussion the very moment after the report was read . As to entering the report on the minutes , that was , in his opinion , tantamount to the adoption of it , and he warned them as to that first step , and he would tell them why . He believed that the committee had not done themselves justice , or had the report donejastice to Grand Lodge . He would tell them what his objections were to the report being entered on the minutes , for as they were to be asked to agree to the resolutions which followed it , he had no desire to precipitate them from the first step to the second , by agreeing to tlie report , which he held to be utterly useless in enabling them to come

to a proper conclusion . Tbey were to be asked to agree to it , and take action that night on a matter which was to last for centuries ; and as the report was only seen by him last Thursday , he would ask how many within those walls as well as the thousands who were without them could be prepared in such information to agree at once to the recommendation of this report . They wero asked to agree to the report , but the committee said they were not to know tbe reasons

which bad led them to their conclusions . Tbe committee might tell them that they should go to St . Martin ' s Hall and see the plans for themselves , but in the course of the evening they would be called upon to agree to certain plans , and then , perhaps , they would know the views ofthe committee . He contended that tho committee had not acted fairly by them , for when he went inf o St . Martin ' s Hall , his mind was all

confusion amidst a mass of paper and drawings , and if they were on that evening called upon to express an opinion , he said that it would be a complete farce . If they were to bo called upon at that stage to agree to the plan , he must say the committee had acted most unfairly , as they called upon the brethren to agree to the plans , but refused to give them the means of testing their value .

Bro . STEBBING rose to order , and said the question before Grand Lodge was not that the report should be adopted but that it shoulcb . be received . It was according to etiquette and common practice to receive the report of every committee as a matter of courtesy , and right except under very peculiar circumstances . If they could show to Grand Lodge that there had been some fraud committed , some injustice done , or

some great error or imposition committed , then that would form a great cause why they should not receive the report , but as it was their learned brother was making great use of words with considerable occupation of their time , on a very sultry evening in discussing the merits of the report on a motion for its reception . Unless he could shew that in the report there was some incompetencysomething unjust or wrongthey were not

, , justified in departing from tbe ordinary courtesies in receiving it , and be hoped that Grand Lodge would not allow that battle of tactics to prevent them from coming to the discussion of a great question ivhich he hoped whoulcl be finally settled that evening .

Tne GRAND MASTER said he was unwilling to interfere , but he thought their learned brother was going beyond the fair limits of discussion . The question was that the report be received , but the learned brother was going into its merits . If they continued iu such a course he could see no end to it . Bro . SARGOOD said it was his intention to move avv amendment . He conld assure his lordship that he meant no discourtesy in giving bis reasons why the report should not be received

ancl entered on the minutes . He thought he was only pointing out , and he intended only to point out , the reasons why thej : should not receive the report . Bro . Sargood then read his amendment , which thanked the committee for their past exertions ; recommended that the report should be referred back to them , and that they should be requested further to report to Grand Lodge the reasons which induced them to select

the plan No . 1 , and that these reasons should be published and circulated for the information of tbe Craft at large . The GRAND MASTER said such an amendment could not be moved until the report had been received . Tbe DEPUTY GRAND MASTER said until a report was received it was not formally before Grand Lodge , and then it rested , with Grand Lodge as to what course it would take with it ,

but certainly it could not be referred back to the committee . It was not before Grand Lodge until it had been received . The GRAND MASTER then put the question that the report of the committee be received and entered on the minutes , which was agreed to . Bro . SARGOOD wished to ask when he would be at liberty to move his amendment .

The GRAND MASTER said he could only introduce his amendment when the first resolution was moved . Bro . SARGOOD said he was obliged to his lordship , and would take that course . Bro . HAVERS said he bad then to move the first resolution T " That this Grand Lodge do proceed to consider and decide upon tbe adoption , or otherwise , of a design distinguished by its

motto or symbol only , and before the name of its author is declared . " He said , unfortunately , the las resolution did not appear to be understood by tho Grand Lodge , as it bound them , to nothing , and be apprehended there would be no difficulty in

carrying the resolution which he had proposed . This resolution ,, like the last , bound them to nothing as they could adopt , reject , or modify any plan which was distinguished by a motto , and that was the object of the committee in proposing tbe resolution they had put before the Grand Lodge . They desired that the plans themselves should be considered on their merits and their merits alone . The committee felt that they had been charged with a most important duty which was to obtain for Masonry

the most-dignified home which could be provided . In the next placo they bad considered the best course by which that result was to be arrived at , and although they desired that they should be in ignorance of the names of the authors of the plans , unfortunately in that respect , and no one could regret it more than himself , their object had been frustrated . At the time they came to a decision on the plans , however , the committee

were in perfect ignorance of the names of the authors , and by the publication of names was so up to three days ago . Ho remained in perfect ignorance of them until , by mere accident , he was informed of the names of the authors of the three selected designs . Still , he felt in the interests of their society that they would decide on the merits of the plansand the merits alone . The committee decided on

, them , but he thought it right to tell the Grand Lodge that tbey were not unanimous in their selection . Deeming it right that the brethren should know every fact connected with the matter , of which he was prepared to give any explanation , and , if he failed to do so if questions were put to him to elucidate any point , he would answer them to tbe best of his ability . The committee agreed , by a majority of 5 to 2 , on the

first ancl second selected plans , but on the third thoy were unanimous . Still , they felt that they ought to have the opinion of some competent professional persons with a view of strengthening them in their choice ; and he believed that ivas a course that the majority of the brethren would have adopted under similar circumstances . It was considered right that they should obtain the opinions of gentlemen of professional celebrityand

, of three gentlemen proposed two were agreed to unanimously . They accordingly placed the selected plans before them , and asked them to state their opinions upon them , and the result was , as regarded two of the plans , —the first and second , —they confirmed the opinion of the committee , but did not agree

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